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 Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir

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AuteurMessage
Ardarín
Grand du Duché
Ardarín

Date d'inscription : 16/11/2006
Nombre de messages : 7217
Nom RR (IG) : Ardarín
Localisation : Vaudemont

Champs et Metier : Forgeron
Voie : Etat
Poste(s) au Castel : Vieux

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MessageSujet: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeDim 21 Déc 2014 - 11:21

Pour commencer :

Jade a refusé de nous fournir une traduction dans chaque langue sous prétexte que "c'est trop de travail pour les traducteurs de faire ça sur un brouillon". Sachant que les 3/4 de la diète comprennent pas un mot d'anglais je prends ça très clairement comme suit :
- dites oui sans réfléchir et laissez moi faire mes affaires
- vous devez me conseiller mis je sais que vous aimerez pas donc taisez vous
- vous êtes des sous-"défection" dont on a rien à foutre

Malgré ça je vais apporter mon bel, institutionnel et juridique avis sur la question. Y a pas mal de chance que ça chie méchant parce que ce qui suit a été écris pas des gros branquignoles qui n'assument pas de vouloir créer une monarchie absolue, mais qui s'en donnent tous les pouvoirs.

Admirez!

Citation :
I. Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ

Article 1 - Description

(1) The Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ, also known as S.R.I.N.G. or Holy Roman Empire, is an elective constitutional monarchy with an Emperor chosen as ruler. The Empire is composed of different regions, culture and languages that are equal in duty and right.

(2) The Empire is composed of the Imperial Domain and of the following provinces::
- Archduchy Austria
- Duchy of Bavaria
- Duchy of Lorraine
- Duchy of Milan
- Duchy of Modena
- Duchy of Savoie
- Duchy of Styria
- Margraviate of Baden
- Principality of Mainz
- Franche-Comté
- County of Augsburg
- County of Celje
- County of Holland
- County of Wurttemberg
- Burgraviate of Nuremberg
- Republic of Florence
- Republic of Genoa
- Republic of Siena

(3) Official languages within the Empire are German, Italian, French, Dutch and Slovenian. However, the mandatory Lingua Franca of the S.R.I.N.G. is English for all imperial institutions.

Article 2 - Religion

(1) The state religion of the S.R.I.N.G. is the Aristotelic Faith, as taught by the Holy Roman and Universal Aristotelic Church.

(2) Relations between the Empire and the Holy Roman and Universal Aristotelic Church are regulated within a concordat.

Article 3 - Emperor

(1) The Emperor holds the title of Holy Roman Emperor. His coat of arms is a black double-headed eagle on a golden background. He is the heir of Romans emperors and the crown of Charlemagne and Otton the First.

(2) The Emperor is the highest authority within the Empire. His power should only be limited by this Constitution. The voice of Emperor is the law.

(3) The imperial authority is transferred directly to the candidate who won the elections of a new Emperor. The Emperor cannot be suspended from his office until he resigns or dies. Therefore, the Emperor is sacred.

(4) With the coronation the Emperor gets all imperial goods, institutions and possessions and the right to use them within the law.

(5) The Emperor's highest duty is to defend and protect his subjects against any threat and the preservation of the Empire itself. For this purpose, the Emperor is especially allowed to:
- set up armies.
- can call his vassals to Auxilium. The vassals will manage their own vassals to answer the call of duty of the Emperor.
- in His great leniency, the Emperor may grant His grace and His mercy following a ruling in all possible judicial instances.
- release every provincial regent from his office and releases his vassals from their oaths.
- declare an outlaw or banish everyone for a period of three months.
- exile everyone in the scope of the contract of judges.


II. The Imperial Council and the executive power

Article 4 - Imperial Council

(1) The Imperial Council is the highest executive council of the S.R.I.N.G.

(2) The Emperor has all power to create his Imperial Council. He is the master of his government.

(3) Its members are chosen by the Holy Roman Emperor, who decides on his own who will be charged with and discharged of an office.

(4) The Imperial Council works in the Lingua Franca for the respect of each nation of the S.R.I.N.G.

(5) It is comprised of:
- The Holy Roman Emperor
- The Imperial Regent
- The Imperial Chancellor
- The Imperial Spokesperson
- The Imperial Secretary
- The Imperial King of Arms
- The Imperial Chamberlain
- The Imperial Minister of Justice
- The Imperial Marshall
- The Imperial Admiral
- The Imperial Church Counselor
- The President of the Imperial Diet

Following the will of the Emperor, the following people may have access to the Imperial Council:
- The King of Germany or its representant
- The King of Lotharingie or its representant
- The Representant for the Imperial Italian provinces
- The Count of Holland
- The Duke of Celje

(6) The Emperor can establish further offices in the Imperial Council if he desires.

(7) Each Imperial Counselor can create his office for his duty in the government under the Emperor's approval.

Article 5 - Imperial Regent

(1) The Imperial Regent is the principal minister of the Emperor and the primus inter pares of the Imperial Counselors.
(2) In case of death, illness or absence of the Emperor, the Imperial Regent;
- is in charge of the imperial government,
- assume the military command,
- is allowed to request military assistance (Auxilium) to defend the Empire,
- cannot declare war without the consent of the simple majority of the provincial regents,
- can create laws and treaties to ensure the sustainability of the Empire. These need to be confirmed by the next Emperor.
- can do withdrawal and allocation of fiefs which also needs to be confirmed by the new Emperor


III. Provinces, Imperial Unions between Provinces and Kingdoms

Article 6 - Kingdoms and Imperial Unions between Provinces

(1) The S.R.I.N.G. can authorize unions between Provinces. The provinces may choose the name of their union, like Kingdoms. Their union and their name shall be approved by the Emperor, after consultation with the Council.

(2) These Kingdoms and Imperial unions between Provinces shall have specific Constitutions, which organize their institutional system. The Emperor can modify them by himself or with a Constitutional Council. The Kingdoms and Imperial unions between Provinces also have the right to modify them themselves as long as, this right has been granted by the Emperor and that it does not interfere with an imperial law which is superior to it.

(3) Provinces can freely join a Kingdom or Imperial union between Provinces according to the constitution of the union. Provinces may leave their union if insurmountable problems are given and remaining would prove more harmful than good. The Emperor has to receive the request from the province, verify the claims and decide about the request. The population advice is required for both decision; either joining or leaving a union.

(4) The Kingdoms and Imperial Unions between Provinces are granted a high level of autonomy. Limitations may be made by this constitution and imperial laws, but should be kept to a minimum. In case of a crisis, the S.R.I.N.G. can interfere.

(5) The imperial laws and imperial decrees are always superior to the Constitutions and laws of the unions between Provinces and Provinces of the S.R.I.N.G..

(6) All Kingdoms and Imperial unions between Provinces are direct vassals of the Imperial Crown, and cannot be equal to the Holy Roman Emperor.

(7) Each King or leader of united Provinces also acts as a representative of the Emperor in his union between Provinces. The leaders can never be equal to the Emperor, without becoming a traitor to the Empire.

(8 ) Each King or leader of united Provinces has to swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Roman Emperor or his representative in case of absence, within 3 day from the beginning of his mandate to reaffirm the mutual support and cohesion of the Empire. The Emperor has to respond to the oath within 7 days since the beginning of the mandate to make it official, if the Emperor or his representative doesn't, the oath is considered accepted. However, if the oath is not done in time by the King or the leader of united Provinces, he is destituted and someone has to be named to assure the regency.
The Emperor can also refuse an allegiance for critical reason, the King or leader then should resign.


Article 7 - Provinces

(1) The Imperial Provinces are the real base of the S.R.I.N.G.

(2) The provinces are granted a high level of autonomy. Limitations may be made by this constitution and imperial laws, but should be kept to a minimum. In case of a crisis, the S.R.I.N.G. can interfere.

(3) The reigning Princes, Dukes, Counts and Lords have to be legally elected or authorized by the Holy Roman Emperor in case of a take-over, and has to swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Roman Emperor or his representative in case of absence, within 3 day from the beginning of his mandate to reaffirm the mutual support and cohesion of the Empire. The Emperor has to respond to the oath within 7 days since the beginning of the mandate to make it official, if the Emperor or his representative doesn't, the oath is considered accepted. However, if the oath is not done in time by the Regent, he is destituted and someone has to be named by the Provincial Council to assure the regency.

The Emperor can also refuse an allegiance for critical reason, the Regent then should resign.


IV. Judiciary

Article 8 - Justice

(1) The judicial power of S.R.I.N.G. consists of three levels. The Imperial Court forms after the Emperor the highest authority followed by courts of appeal and the regional provincial courts. In regions where a local Court of Appeal is absent, the Imperial Court of Appeal will take action. The Imperial Court of Appeal will only rule on the validity of the judgment from the local Court of Appeal.

(2) The constitution of a kingdom/union may found a constitutional court charged with the interpretation of the constitution and the laws of the kingdom/union. It can also be a court of first instance if either the constitution or the laws of the kingdom/union states so. The Imperial Court of Appeal may be invoked as court of second instance in this case.

(3) The interpretation of this constitution, and the laws of the Empire, is up to the Imperial Court.

(4) Further details are regulated within the Imperial Law of Justice.


Article 9 - High Treason

(1) As high treason against the Emperor and the Holy Roman Empire is considered:
- the lack of obedience to a direct order of the Emperor,
- the refusal of economic or military aid (Auxilium) for the Empire,
- the non-recognition of the Emperor, his government or imperial laws,
- the attempt to change the structures of the state outside of the Imperial Diet,
- the reveal of state-supportive secrets,
- the conscious action against imperial foreign and security policy,
- the blocking , impeding or non-execution of imperial decisions and
- the support of traitors in any form.

(2) High treason against the Empire is determined by the Imperial Court.

(3) A traitor loses his right of offices, dignities, titles, protection and obedience.


Article 10 - Pax Imperia

(1) The cohesion of the S.R.I.N.G. is protected by Pax Imperia. The Holy Roman Emperor, in order to maintain unity and avoid the useless suffering of its imperial subjects that could arise with disputes between imperial provinces, has the authority to pacify any region of the Empire.

(2) Further details may be regulated within an Imperial Law.


V. Legislative

Article 11 - Imperial Diet

(1) The Imperial Diet represents the legislature of the Empire and is also an advisor to the Emperor. In addition, it has important control functions. It is lead by a president choosen by the Emperor.

(2) The Imperial Diet consists of two chambers. Each college has the task of initiative and reactive advice to the Emperor (Consilium), to exchange with other counterparts and to strengthen the unity within the Empire and the founding of common traditions.

(3) Members of the Regents' hall are the Kings and the provincial Regents recognized by the Emperor with acceptance of the oath and as well the Primates of the Church.

(4) Members of the Nobility Hall are the direct vassals of the Emperor, people enobled/dubbed by the Emperor or their heir, if the will was duly approved by the Emperor, a valid oath at the election of the Emperor is needed.

(5) Each member of a college has one vote. The accumulation of votes or the membership in more than on college is not legal.

(6) The Emperor and the Imperial Council have the right to speak in all colleges. They do not have any votes in the Imperial Diet, even if they would have it as a member of one of the colleges.

(6) The Imperial Diet gives himself a statute for further regulations.

Article 12 - Laws

(1) The Imperial Diet can pass laws in accordance with this constitution, that are valid for every citizen, vassal, and each person staying in the S.R.I.N.G. after being enacted by the Emperor.

(2) Proposals for laws can be drafted and presented by the Emperor, his council or the member of a college. The Emperor and the chambers may also entrust a committee to prepare a draft of a law.

(3) When a vote is held, some rules have to be respected within Chambers in term of quorum and results. In the Regent's Hall, due to their important responsibilities toward their population, a quorum of 2/3 of the voters is required while no quorum is needed in the Nobility's Hall, the expressed votes are sufficient. Each chamber is worth 50% of the total result. To be valided, a result must receive 50%+1 vote in total.

(4) The Emperor decides for himself, if he is ceding authority in the legislation to the Imperial Diet. Ceded authority can only be obtained again via the correspondingly required majorities.

(5) The Emperor has the right to veto against all passed laws, which he expresses by refusing his signature and non-remittal of the law.

(6) In the case of competing legislation, the older regulation is obligatory.

Article 13 - Heraldic

(1) As part of its suzerainty over all the territories of the Empire, the Emperor is allowed grant fiefs to citizens of the S.R.I.N.G or others persons. He is the ultimate decidor in heraldic matters.

(2) Further details are regulated within the Imperial Laws of Nobility.
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Armel Elyzabeth
Lorrain/e
Armel Elyzabeth

Date d'inscription : 03/11/2014
Nombre de messages : 179
Nom RR (IG) : Armelyze
Localisation : Epinal

Champs et Metier : Legumes et Meunière
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 4:25

En effet et j'adore cette partie notamment

Citation :
(3) Provinces can freely join a Kingdom or Imperial union between Provinces according to the constitution of the union. Provinces may leave their union if insurmountable problems are given and remaining would prove more harmful than good. The Emperor has to receive the request from the province, verify the claims and decide about the request. The population advice is required for both decision; either joining or leaving a union.

Ce qui n'a pas été le cas pour la Lorraine, vu que le peuple à fait connaitre son avis sur la Lotharingie et son désir de la quitter, mais que cela lui a été refuser, dès lors pourquoi prétendre que les provinces ont le droit de se réunir entre elles et de quitter à tout moment si ils n'y a pas d'entente.

Quand à tes velléités sur le "Bar"

Je crois que tu as ta réponse...

Citation :
Article 13 - Heraldic

(1) As part of its suzerainty over all the territories of the Empire, the Emperor is allowed grant fiefs to citizens of the S.R.I.N.G or others persons. He is the ultimate decidor in heraldic matters.

(2) Further details are regulated within the Imperial Laws of Nobility.

Remarque cela non plus n'est pas mal, il va pas rester trop de monde, si elle l'applique

Citation :

- declare an outlaw or banish everyone for a period of three months.
- exile everyone in the scope of the contract of judges.
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Einskaldir Ruhnenson
Sénéchal
Einskaldir Ruhnenson

Date d'inscription : 26/06/2008
Nombre de messages : 2015
Nom RR (IG) : Einskaldir_ruhnenson
Localisation : En convalescence à Épinal

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Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Senech12
Rang FDL : Sénéchal des FDL


Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Empty
MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 9:01

Quand je lis ceci, une chose me frappe particulièrement : le non-intérêt pour les provinces de se rassembler en unions.

En effet :
Citation :
(2) These Kingdoms and Imperial unions between Provinces shall have specific Constitutions, which organize their institutional system. The Emperor can modify them by himself or with a Constitutional Council. The Kingdoms and Imperial unions between Provinces also have the right to modify them themselves as long as, this right has been granted by the Emperor and that it does not interfere with an imperial law which is superior to it.

Mais :
Citation :

(1) The Imperial Provinces are the real base of the S.R.I.N.G.

(2) The provinces are granted a high level of autonomy. Limitations may be made by this constitution and imperial laws, but should be kept to a minimum. In case of a crisis, the S.R.I.N.G. can interfere.

Conclusion: On peut supposer qu'une province qui souhaiterait conserver un maximum d'autonomie aurait tout intérêt à demeurer seule et éviter d'ouvrir la porte à l'intervention directe de l'Empereur dans ses affires.
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Ardarín
Grand du Duché
Ardarín

Date d'inscription : 16/11/2006
Nombre de messages : 7217
Nom RR (IG) : Ardarín
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Champs et Metier : Forgeron
Voie : Etat
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 11:13

Le soucis c'est que l'Empire à tendance à pondre des lois comme ça lui chante et qui touche aux provinces sans rien leur en dire...

Donc bon...
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Gertruden Trichelieu
figure reconnue
Gertruden Trichelieu

Date d'inscription : 20/07/2013
Nombre de messages : 1082
Nom RR (IG) : Gertruden
Localisation : Vaudemont

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 12:44

C'est du lourd effectivement :
Citation :
(2) The Emperor is the highest authority within the Empire. His power should only be limited by this Constitution. The voice of Emperor is the law.
(3) The imperial authority is transferred directly to the candidate who won the elections of a new Emperor. The Emperor cannot be suspended from his office until he resigns or dies. Therefore, the Emperor is sacred.
(4) With the coronation the Emperor gets all imperial goods, institutions and possessions and the right to use them within the law.

En gros il a le droit de faire ce qu'il veut et on ne peut rien faire légalement puisque sa voix serait la Loi.

Citation :
(5) The Emperor's highest duty is to defend and protect his subjects against any threat and the preservation of the Empire itself. For this purpose, the Emperor is especially allowed to:
- set up armies.
- can call his vassals to Auxilium. The vassals will manage their own vassals to answer the call of duty of the Emperor.
- in His great leniency, the Emperor may grant His grace and His mercy following a ruling in all possible judicial instances.
- release every provincial regent from his office and releases his vassals from their oaths.
- declare an outlaw or banish everyone for a period of three months.
- exile everyone in the scope of the contract of judges.
Beaucoup de droits, en revanche il n'a aucun devoir envers ses vassaux. Hum...

Citation :
(8 ) Each King or leader of united Provinces has to swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Roman Emperor or his representative in case of absence, within 3 day from the beginning of his mandate to reaffirm the mutual support and cohesion of the Empire. The Emperor has to respond to the oath within 7 days since the beginning of the mandate to make it official, if the Emperor or his representative doesn't, the oath is considered accepted. However, if the oath is not done in time by the King or the leader of united Provinces, he is destituted and someone has to be named to assure the regency.
The Emperor can also refuse an allegiance for critical reason, the King or leader then should resign.
On exige des autres mais on se donne le droit de ne pas suivre les mêmes règles et contraintes...

La seule chose de bien à ondition que ce soit vraiment appliqué:


Citation :
(3) Provinces can freely join a Kingdom or Imperial union between Provinces according to the constitution of the union. Provinces may leave their union if insurmountable problems are given and remaining would prove more harmful than good. The Emperor has to receive the request from the province, verify the claims and decide about the request. The population advice is required for both decision; either joining or leaving a union.
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Hathor1
Grand du Duché
Hathor1

Date d'inscription : 03/12/2006
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Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Premiereclassezq3
Rang FDL : Garde du Bastion des loups


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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 14:24

Ne maitrisant pas l'anglais je ne donnerais qu'un avis là-dessus.
Quand on a la charge d'un empire la moindre des choses est de s'entourer de traducteurs afin qu'il n'y ait qu'UNE interprétation OFFICIELLE.
Comportement inadmissible qui me rend furieuse.
Faut pas venir pleurer ensuite qu'il y ait des critiques
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Ersinn
Grand du Duché
Ersinn

Date d'inscription : 29/10/2010
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Localisation : Auprès d'Elisette, Ludwig, Guise and co.

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 19:34

"défection", mais moi en fait j'en ai ras-le-bol de l'Empire. Dès qu'on a à faire avec quelqu'un d'une langue étrangère, si on maitrise pas l'anglais, on a perdu d'avance.

Je n'ai jamais autant détesté l'Empire et son fonctionnement. Je vais émettre une proposition très sérieuse : demander à être rattaché à la France. On aura la paix sur les problèmes linguistiques, ce qui pose le plus problème depuis plusieurs mois.
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Gertruden Trichelieu
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Gertruden Trichelieu

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 20:07

Si vous voulez une traduction, je peux la faire, mais ce ne sera pas la traduction officielle, effectivement.
Ton idée, Ers, est à garder sous le coude, je pense que ce serait effectivement plus judicieux pour nous. Mais là, ce sera de la haute trahison envers l'Empire, ils risquent de ne pas trop apprécier dans les hautes sphères, et de nous le faire payer.
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Ardarín
Grand du Duché
Ardarín

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 21:49

Tant que je serais Duc je n'approuverai aucun passage en France. Je suis un impérialiste, j'essaye de changer l'empire alors si les Lorrains veulent partir ce sera quand je ne serais plus là!

Pour le reste je suis en train de rédiger ma critique en me basant sur tous les avis (ici et cdn) qui m'ont été fournis plus ma propre vision des choses. Ce sera malheureusement tout en anglais aussi car je n'ai pas le temps de tout traduire
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Ersinn
Grand du Duché
Ersinn

Date d'inscription : 29/10/2010
Nombre de messages : 6082
Nom RR (IG) : Ersinn
Localisation : Auprès d'Elisette, Ludwig, Guise and co.

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeLun 22 Déc 2014 - 21:53

Gertruden Trichelieu a écrit:
Si vous voulez une traduction, je peux la faire, mais ce ne sera pas la traduction officielle, effectivement.
Ton idée, Ers, est à garder sous le coude, je pense que ce serait effectivement plus judicieux pour nous. Mais là, ce sera de la haute trahison envers l'Empire, ils risquent de ne pas trop apprécier dans les hautes sphères, et de nous le faire payer.

De la haute trahison pour l'Empire, évidemment. Mais il n'y a rien de plus légitime pour un peuple de se rapprocher d'autres peuples qui lui sont plus proche culturellement. Nous voyons bien qu'en Empire, les différences qui autrefois n'étaient plus un problème, sont devenus un véritable fléau. Du fait d'une langue différente, le manque de respect/déférence/considération est presque devenu quotidien.

Sans garde fou divin, je doute que cette situation puisse changer un jour, à moins de parvenir à placer Ardarin sur le trône. Pour moi, les élections prochaines seront la dernière chance.
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Zezinho
Crieur
Zezinho

Date d'inscription : 29/06/2014
Nombre de messages : 630
Nom RR (IG) : Zezinho
Localisation : Je m'enfile des chiantos, alors à ton avis ?

Champs et Metier : Intermittent du spectacle royaumesque.
Voie : De l'autonomie et de la souveraineté Lorraine
Poste(s) au Castel : Redresseur de torts anciens

- : I

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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 0:35

Effectivement, les prochaines élections impériales, me semblent "la dernière chance, au dernier moment" si je puis dire pour radicalement tout changer en empire pour (enfin) retrouver une situation de normalité dans les provinces. Et je me battrais jusqu'au bout, de tous les moyens à notre disposition pour y arriver. Parce que si Arda est élu, ça sera la victoire de la Lorraine, pas seulement la sienne.


Mais même si Arda devient empereur, il n'empêche que la volonté de vengeance des lésés de ce possible règne, ces bureaucrates et autres sbires pro-dictature pour leur intérêt personnel (titres, honneurs pouvoir factice au dessus des provinces tout ça) sera d'autant plus accrue.
Si certains germains/conseillers impériaux se sont abandonnés à dire qu'il faudrait "exterminer" les lorrains puis "annexer" la Lorraine (d'où l'idée qu'un membre du conseil impérial peut être duc n'importe où...) parce que Ersinn et Scapin ont "osé" mettre le nez de Comyr et de la franc comtoise dans leur propre déjection, alors imaginez après notre passage à la tête de l'empire... si ils ne se déclarent pas indépendants et qu'on aie donc plus à supporter leurs désirs autocratiques/absurdes, qu'ils restent alors votant dans l'empire, alors oui, ils voudront se venger d'autant plus violemment. Et là, ça sera la guerre impitoyable et interminable entre les germains et nous.


Du coup, si Arda est empereur la question du rattachement (négociation pour une double allégeance, négociation pour le transfert de suzeraineté, et donc demande au Tout Puissant pour la partie In Gratibus) à la France se posera quand même pour notre survie, pour notre avenir, en fonction de la situation que j'ai envisagée plus haut.
Et si nous sommes effectivement rattachés In Gratibus à la France APRÈS l'accord d'un empereur, ou APRÈS la violation de l'empereur de ses devoirs héraldiques à l'égard de la Lorraine, alors il n'y a pas de fait, haute trahison de notre part. Dès lors que l'empereur brise son serment d'une façon ou d'une autre, il nous permet de chercher un meilleur suzerain, de plein droit. C'est ça, la nature coutumière d'un monde féodal.
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Ardarín
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 1:00

Ardarin a écrit:
Avant toute chose : Si ce qui est déjà n'est pas bon, le remplacer par quelque chose de différemment mauvais n'est pas urgent.

Je n'aborderai que les points qui me semblent discutables ou carrément mauvais. Et je ne traduirai pas en français, ça m'a déjà pris des heures juste pour tout commenter en anglais. Commençons donc!

_________________________________________________________________________________

Before anithing else : If what already exists is not good, changing it for something bad in a different way is not urgent.

I will only address the points that seem questionable or downright wrong. And I will not translate in french, it already took me several hours just for this english version. Let's get started!



About the article 1 :
- point (1). The Emperor is not chosen he is elected!

- point (2). As it was said, it is not a good idea to describe that precisely the provinces. Why? Because :


    If a territory does like the Provence did, you will have to rewrite the MC If a new territory appear, you will have to rewrite the MC. That point might never happened but... We must be prepared to everything If a province changes its status, you will have to rewrite the MC


I suggest this formula :


    "The Empire is composed of all provinces listed In Gratibus (IG) and the Imperial Domain, described later in this document."


I know that with this sentence, the claim also includes Provence and Helvetic Confederation. Which is absolutely not a problem. A claim is not a possession.
I will speak about the DI later, I have many things to say about this.

- point (3). This is utterly repugnant! Noone should be discarded because he or she lacks knowledge of a foreign language that none of us speaks by birth in the Empire! This is clearly an act of injustice and unfairness! You just have to look at us to see how many have basic knowledge of English and how few are fluent!
We are a multicultural Empire and, in order to understand each other, it might be good to use a common tongue (not a lingua franca, the explanation of the Duke of Savoie was good on that term) but it must never be mandatory! Keep it as a norm not a law!
"Official languages within the Empire are German, Italian, French, Dutch and Slovenian."


About the article 2 :
- point (1). Each and every province has it's own "state religion", may or may not  be it the true Aristotelic Faith of Rome. To Include this point in the MC might be a problem for provinces that do not follow this system. I would prefer this :


    "The official religion of the S.R.I.N.G. is the Aristotelic Faith, as taught by the Holy Roman and Universal Aristotelic Church.



- point (2). It is completely useless to put that in the MC.


About the article 3 :
- point (1). Do you want to erase the memory of the first Emperor LongJohnSilver ? Well ! You can't use His name anyway if you want to build an absolute monarchy.

- point (2). It is in absolute contradiction with Article 1 point (1). What you describe here is an autocratic and dictatorial manner to rule : absolute monarchy. I will pinpoint it everytime in the rest of the MC

- point (3). Since we are supposed to live in a constitutional monarchy, it should be possible to suspend a bad Emperor from his office [if there is a possibility for him to resign IG]. And the Emperor is ELECTED and does not get his power from God's will. Thus an Emperor can not be considered as sacred. Nevertheless he must be the most respected.

- point (4). What are "imperial goods" and "imperial possessions". They must be clearly defined. I do not want anyone to claim goods that belong to provinces, which might happen in an absolute monarchy such as described in this MC.

- point (5). "The vassal of my vassal, is not my vassal". The Duke of Savoie already explained it, this is common knowledge! Therefore, if it is not asked, and I said "asked", not "ordered", the vassals of the Empire do not ask their own vassals to come for Auxilium.
An Emperor that can grant grace or mercy "in all judicial instance" can go against the justice of a Province. This is an abuse of power that I disapprove. This is absolute monarchy that goes against JUSTICE. An Emperor is not law! An Emperor is not above law! An Emperor's duty is to ensure the application of the law and to make people respect the law, including himself!
The release of a provincial regent should only occur in case of hight treason, not when it pleases the Emperor, this is dictatorship! Even the vassals of the Empire should only be released with specific procedure of justice. And I hope that this text does not "imply" that the Emperor can release the vassal of a provincial regent! It is only to a provincial regent to do so, because once again : "The vassal of my vassal, is not my vassal". People have rights!
Moreover, the declaration of "outlaw" and the banishment should only happen as a result of a trial. And if I respect my ideology, I would say that banishment from an Empire is utterly against all human rights!


About the article 4 :
- point (2). Do not use "create", you should prefer "compose".

- point (3). Useless. The notion is already in the point (2).

- point (4). Please refer to my comment about Article 1 point (3).

- point (5). This contradicts point (2) of present article... If you establish a number of functions, the Emperor can not compose his Imperial Council at will.
Moreover, speaking of the representants of "kingdoms" is somewhat stupid if you allow the provinces to regroup/ungroup at need. The point (5) should be deleted.

- point (6). In regards to point (2) this is obvious. No need for this point.

- point (7). It is the responsability of an Emperor to conduct it's politics, the members have the duty to advice the Emperor. Since the council has all executive power, arrangments of offices are in its range of action.


About the article 5 :
- point (1). I thought that an Emperor could manage his council as he sees fit. This definition is useless and in contradiction with article 4 point (2).

- point (2). The regent has to maintain order and prepare the Empire for its new ruler. He is not an Emperor himself. Thus its range of action should be limited to this list :


    - assume the military command in accordance with previous orders from the Emperor, - ensure application of edicts publicly declared by the Emperor prior to his death, - ensure justice


And NOTHING else. Every other matter must wait for the new Emperor.


About article 6 :
- point (1). Remove "like Kingdoms", this is an unnecessary exemple. The only thing that should be accepted by the Emperor is the content of fundamental texts to ensure that they do not infringe anything in the MC. Since names, title and the rest come from those texts, the Emperor can decide. This decision should only be based on legal arguments, because the duty of any ruler is to ensure application of laws!

General remark for incoming points : please remove "kingdoms" and only speak of unions. A kingdom is a king of union between several provinces.

- point (2). See general remark - The Emperor should not modify things by himself, except if it goes against law! The right to modify itself for an union of provinces is an elemantary right. Each revision must respect laws, that the only point that matter.

- point (3). See general remark - The condition to enter/leave an union should not be part of the MC but part of the union fundamental texts. This point is useless and still describe dictatorship behaviour.

- point (4). See general remark - Useless except if you change it for this : Unions between Provinces are granted a high level of autonomy in domains that are not in the range of action of the Empire or provinces, or in domains that provinces accept to share together. After much consideration, even in this way it's kind of logical... But it is better said than not.

- point (5). See general remark - That part about laws' hierarchy should have it's own detailed section...

- point (6). See general remark - At first I wondered what to say about this... There are so many types of possible unions between provinces that I can only say : It should depend on the kind of union and be specified in it's fundamental texts, a sort of sine qua non condition because it is logical to be under Empire dominion.

- point (7). See general remark - This is a perfect conflict of interest. This should not be possible. The imperial representative should be someone else. And you repeat a part of the point (6). An Emperor that thinks he needs to affirm : "I am the Emperor", is everything but a true Emperor.

- point (8 ). See general remark - The oath should be given to the Emperor only  and no one else! The numbers of days is kinda stupid too. When we compare it to the size of our Empire... We do not live in a magic world were even a pigeon can fly from Celje to Strasbourg in 3 or 7 days. There is apparently no reason to refuse an Oath. That part is an apology to consider the "crime of opinion". Lorraine is against such tyranny.

About article 7 :
- point (1). This is absolutely right, without provinces the Empire is nothing. But Remember that without the Empire, provinces still stand firm and right.

- point (2). The prerogatives of Provinces and those of the Empire should be different. Like the second instance in justice, this is for the Empire and no Provinces can manage it without infringing the principle of conflict of interest. In another hand the Empire as nothing to do about a Province's financial administration (those are exemples). Therefore the Empire should not interfer but offer assitance in case a Province needs/ask for it.
I take this opportunity to remind every one that if you have a vassal you have a duty of subsistence toward this vassal.

- point (3). Please read about geography, ideological and legal aspects in my comment on article 6 point (8). If the oath is not made... Well! The Emperor must take actions indeed. But I repeat : There is apparently no reason to refuse an Oath. That part is an apology to consider the "crime of opinion". Lorraine is against such tyranny.


About article 8 :
- point (2). To have a constitutional court is a prerogative of an Union of Provinces and should be declared in its fundamental texts. It is not the business of the Empire to allow it or not. The only thing that we must pay attention to is that those constitutional courts do not interfere with provinces rights.

- point (3). There should be no interpretation possible. Juridical texts should be clear and precise!

- General Point : There should be specified the laws' hierarchy.


About article 9 :
- point (1). If the rest of this MC was not a nest for dictator, I would have no problem with this article. But, in its actual state this " the lack of obedience to a direct order of the Emperor, " is not a good reason. Because the order can be really bad if the Emperor word is law.
Then some things that seem to be erroneous :
"the conscious action against imperial foreign and security policy," may be "interests" after foreign. There is an "and" at the end of the line before the final one that should not be there.

- point (2). In regards to article 3 point (5) were an Emperor can banish someone without trial... It is sort of ridiculous. Everything should be determined through justice!

- point (3). Only at imperial level, for the loss of title should be decided by his suzerain.


About article 10 :
- point (1). Do we need a Pax Imperia, like Romans of the first century needed a Pax Romana? Do we come from an age of civil war or invasion? Not sure... It is the duty of an Emperor to ensure justice to his vassals. If war arise between two provinces it means that : they don't care about the Emperor. Or that the Emperor failed to it's duty. Or that one of the two provinces thinks that justice provided by the Emperor is unfair. At this point it is the decision of the Emperor to assure another of his duty toward vassals : protection. If both are culprit there is still a solution and it is to bring a third army to enforce peace, justice et caetera. Such a lively world would be wonderful!

- point (2). In fact this whole article is useless!


About article 11 :
- point (1). This seems strange to me that the Diet represents the legislature of the Empire when we also have article 3 point (2) "The voice of Emperor is the law"... Who is the real legislative power in the Empire? And what are those wonderful and important control functions?
And now, a summary :
The Emperor, whose voice is law, who is the highest authority in judiciary matters and has executive power, chooses the president of his legislature... Let me see the connections. The emperor has the three powers... Perfect. Just the dream for any dictator!!! Where is our Constitutional Monarchy?

At this point I wonder if it is worth to continue this reading and my comments... Nevertheless, my dignity compels me to go on!

- point (2). A legislative assembly that have the right to advice in a proactive way... So much epic!

- point (5). A vote for what purpose? What are the conditions for a vote to be accepted since we have two chambers? An Imperial Noble can't be the regnant of a province... Yeah!!!!! Liberty is on the way!

- first point (6). A member of the Imperial Council can be the regnant of a provinces but a member of imperial nobility can not? First, that's unfair! Secund, what if the member of Imperial Council is also a member of imperial nobility? Third, no one smells some conflict of interest?

- second point (6). Yeah, and why don't we include all that is here? You put part of legislation in a place, another part in another place. That's crazy, inefficient and subject to mistakes!


About article 12
- point (1). Inch Emperor... Anyway! His word is law, so enacting a law is a fair prerogative! Everytime that it is mentioned that a part of power is granted to another than the Emperor, there is a reminder that, yes, only the Emperor decides! Seriously... Is it because the writer desires power, or is it because they fear that others could use it against them?

- point (2). Many persons can propose laws. This is actually a good thing! First time I say this after several hours of speech!!!! That deserves to be pointed out!

- point (3). Let's see what article 3 point (2) says : "The voice of Emperor is the law". As a matter of fact, we should be gratefull to have the right to vote sometimes. But if we have responsibilities toward our populations, indicating that we must have a quorum, the imperial nobility has no responsabilities toward, the Empire or its populations. No quorum for the nobility, if only one guy votes it is perfectly fine...

- point (4). Constitutional Monarchy when the Emperor wants... So, it might be that everything from this MC could be summarised as : "The Emperor has all powers".

- point (5). If you vote something that the Emperor dislikes : site on it!

- point (6). Or you can use article 3 point (2)... That would be the best moment to use it! To decide something useful!

General remark : a lot of words for what was said 9 articles before...


About article 13 :
- point (1). Just in case you would forget it : The Emperor is our supreme leader! Even if it goes against all vassalic customs, He decides for everyone!

- point (2). And we do not like it either!






J'ai une question finale : est-ce une moquerie?
_________________________________________________________

I have on question at the end : Is this a mockery?

A la fin j'en avais marre... C'était trop débile et mal fait! Même il y a 8 ans j'aurais pas chié un truc pareil!


Dernière édition par Ardarín le Mar 23 Déc 2014 - 1:28, édité 2 fois
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Zezinho
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Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Empty
MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 1:13

En 1455/6 notre constitution Lorraine était déjà une œuvre d'art (oligarchique) par rapport à toute la daube pondue depuis 4 ans par la bureaucratie impériale.

Mes félicitations sincères pour toutes ces heures d'analyse et de travail effectuées.
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Ersinn
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 15:14

Même question que les nobles, mais plus profondes : qu'en penses les autres provinces ?
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Ardarín
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 15:22

La savoie est contre tout ce qui va à l'encontre de leur autonomie et liberté

la FC je sais pas
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Ersinn
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 15:23

Les autres provinces étrangères je voulais dire.
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 15:25

Steiemark critique.

Repubblica fiorentina est 100% pour.

RAS pour les autres
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Ersinn
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMar 23 Déc 2014 - 16:11

Ok. Je vais essayer de faire pencher les allemands de notre coté alors.
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je t'en prie!
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MessageSujet: Re: Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Nouvelles Magna Charta... Ame sensible s'abstenir Icon_minitimeMer 24 Déc 2014 - 15:03

Florence ? le "duc" actuel, quoi. Je vois mal un italien qui ne débarque pas de ce matin dans les royaumes (ou corrompu par une promesse de titre), se coller un coup d'arbalète dans le pied en supprimant encore un peu plus la liberté de sa république.
Ou alors il ne l'a pas lu !


Rigole, puis :

Merci Ersinn de tes efforts.
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